[Podcast] 'Inbound & Down' S07 E18: Leveling Up (The Book) ft. Eric Siu

Inbound & Down Podcast- Purple text that says Season 07 Episode 18 Leveling Up- The Book ft. Eric Siu with a photo of Eric Siu

On this episode of 'Inbound & Down,' host Jon Sasala chats with Eric Siu, CEO at ClickFlow and author of "Leveling Up: How to Master the Game of Life."


You can find Eric Siu on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and online at levelingup.com.

Show Notes:

Do you have questions about this episode? Send them to inbound@moreycreative.com.

Read the episode transcript below.

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Brian Halligan: This is Brian Halligan and you're listening to Inbound & Down from Morey Creative Studios.

SL:Welcome to Inbound & Down: The Art and Science of Inbound Marketing with Jon Sasala, President of Morey Creative Studios.

Hey it’s, Sage here. So, it seems like just yesterday—okay, I’m lying—it feels like a hundred years ago that we were opening season seven with Eric Siu, and we’ve decided to close the season in the same way. We’re welcoming back Eric Siu. Eric is promoting his awesome new book, Leveling Up: How to Master the Game of Life.

Jon and Eric discuss his reasons for writing the book, what you can learn from it and how you can apply the lessons to your everyday life. Just to note, before we close the season out, thank you to all of the listeners and supporters of Inbound & Down. I hope that we’ve brought you a few moments of relief in this wild year. Working on the show and all of the Morey Creative programs certainly have for me. So, stay well, stay safe, and we’ll catch you in future seasons. Here’s Jon and Eric!

Jon Sasala: Here we go. I’ve been calling this episode our bonus episode, technically, you know, it’s a full episode, but we opened up season seven with Eric Siu of ClickFlow, and I’m glad to have him back here today to bookend this season. Eric, thank you so much for joining us again here on Inbound & Down.

Eric Siu: Thanks for having me. The world has changed quite a bit, but glad to be here.

JS: It certainly has. You know, when you came on last year what we were talking about was your work there over there at ClickFlow, and then you personally, the way that you level up your content, your content output, repurpose a lot of content, but you’d teased out that you were working on a book that was going to be released called Leveling Up, and here we are today, the book is right around the corner from being released.

So, we wanted to connect with you one more time here to talk more deeply about that book specifically, I got an advanced copy of the book and I did get a chance to look through it, man. It blew my mind. I was not expecting it to be so engaging and so tactical and have so many takeaways that you can actually deploy in real life. So, let’s talk about the structure of this—it’s pulling from your experience as a gamer, something that I’m really not familiar with. Can you tell me about what brought you to writing this book and kind of what it’s about?

ES: Yeah, I think it’s a couple of things. So growing up, the only thing I was good at was playing games. And I discovered the internet when I was six years old—or maybe it was seven or eight years old—but my parents didn’t know about it and I didn’t want to ask them for it, so I stole my mom’s credit card. And then basically what I would do was, I will wait for them to leave the house, and then I would move my computer all the way over and plug it into the phone line, and I’d be on the internet when I hear the car pull in, I’d unplug it, and I moved my computer back.

So I was doing that for a couple of years and I found this thing called gaming, and this is when I started to gain confidence because I wasn’t good at anything else. My parents, they’re great by the way, but they didn’t really tell me, “Hey, you should be looking at this or this.” My mom would send me to swimming classes and all of that. I was just not really into it, but the one thing I excelled at was gaming and that carried over into high school. It carried over into college and it was the one thing I knew, and I just knew to myself, look, if I could find one thing in life that felt like gaming, I would be set for the rest of my life, so.

JS: When you say, “that felt like gaming,” something that you were so passionate about and so like driven to excel at and really become one of the best in?

ES: Yeah. So, I think that’s probably where my competitiveness came from and also, you know, growing up too, I will say it’s really important to look at your childhood, at least for me, because it’s how you’re wired, right? So, for my parents, being acknowledged was getting really good grades, right? Getting into good schools and all that and bragging to other parents. Now I didn’t really care for school. So, my mom was always like, “Why can’t you be like this person?” So, there was a lack of acknowledgement, and when I was playing games and I was with other teams, I was interacting with other people there was a sense of acknowledgement. There’s a sense of belonging, right?

So, that’s what I gravitated towards from there, you know, to myself, when I woke up in the morning every day, thinking about games, I was like, “How much value can I add to my team?” So, we can be the best team ever, and that is very similar to the world of business. To me, business is the ultimate game, but overall life just has levels, right? So, if we think about the first time that we work out, we are going to have a hard time lifting the bar. Then you can eventually work your way up to lifting, you know, forty five on each side, then you could go to two plates, three plates and all that, but there’s levels to everything, not just business, not just games.

JS: So, I want to stay on your family just for a moment. You know, growing up, you’re accessing the internet without them even knowing you’re excelling in this world. I assume they really don’t understand, and they’re not encouraging you along the way. Is this creating strife inside of your household where you’re trying to do something that they’re really not behind?

ES: Totally, and I think that drives my—just to complete the point from earlier because I didn’t—so, the point around competitiveness, because I was not acknowledged by my parents, it made me a very competitive person. So, it lends well into games where you either have to eliminate people, right? Eliminate or kill whatever you want to and so it created that competitiveness, which goes well into the world of gaming because if you’re not acknowledged, you basically have a chip on your shoulder.

And a lot of entrepreneurs actually have a chip on their shoulder. Something happened to them when they were younger, when they didn’t feel like they were acknowledged or something like that. I’m aware of it now, but that’s, you know, when you think of my strengths, one of my top five strengths is competitiveness. It’s actually number three on the list.

JS: So, competitiveness, trying to really be great in this world of gaming. Again, I really don’t know much about gaming. My extent is Duck Hunt and, you know, maybe some Tetris. Beyond that, it’s gone a lot further, and the ecosystems, the communities, the worlds, the online playing with other people has really kind of changed and evolved over the years. Can you tell people who might not be familiar with the type of world you were living in, what it was like?

ES: Yeah, absolutely, and I think, by the way, did you play any sports growing up?

JS: I did, but it was gymnastics. So, I don’t know if most people will give me credit for being an athlete, but I was a gymnast.

ES: That counts. I think it’s fricking hard, right? And, so why were you passionate? Were you passionate about gymnastics?

JS: I loved it. I did it for about eight years, nine years, and I was going three or four times a week and really on a path, but it was because of this—it was because of the sense of community, the team that I was working out with and how we would compete with each other to see who can do better and better things.

ES: Yep. So, there you go. That’s exactly the same thing carried over into the world of gaming. So, at 9 or 10 years old, when I’m playing games like Quake, when you can actually play online— sure everybody’s killing each other—but you’re interacting with each other on IRC, internet relay chat, right, and this is before Slack. Slack is basically IRC by the way, for those, you know, old school people. I guess if you’re older like me and so the sense of community, that’s something I never had before, because I was not good at sports.

My parents had acknowledged me. I guess I wasn’t acknowledged by my peers in real life. So, the only sense of community that I had was in the world of gaming. So, I seek solace there. Not only that, but we all try to help each other. We all try to get better, and that’s something that makes you addicted, right? Community is one of the most—if we talk about leverage being audience, community is audience, and it’s very hard to build. Which, if you think of your podcast right now, what you are building is you’re building community at the end of the day, and then you can do events and things like that.

I think, you know, human beings, I think we’ve seen from this year, we all long for community, which is why you see people paying, you know, 10, 20, 30,000 dollars a 100,000 dollars plus to go to events like TED or join peer groups, masterminds, whatever you want to call them. That is the thing that holds us together, and it keeps us sane.

JS: So the community that you’re a part of does require, you know, for you to be successful a lot of time and a lot of commitment. And when you’re a young person, when you’re trying to go to school and as I read in your book, not enjoying school and really just wanting to be back in front of your computer, back in that gaming world, you need to commit a lot of hours and it’s late nights for people and could potentially be to the detriment of their formal studies or other formal things. How do you balance the value you might get out of committing that much time in a virtual world versus what you should be doing in the real world?

ES: That’s a really good point, and so there’s a saying around how gaming is the shadow world, right? So, there’s real life and you have your shadow self. My opinion is, let’s say if I had a child right now and they were really into gaming or sewing, for example, I would do whatever it took because I’ll get very curious and then think about, “Hey, what can I do to make you really great? Like how great do you want to be?”

Once you learn how to become great, then how do you pull that over into real life? I think just like sports is a great training ground for real life, games are a great training ground as well, for just being great in general. So, choose what avenue you want to go into to be great, and then let’s figure out how to translate that into the real world.

JS: It’s interesting, and making sure that if your child is getting into gaming, isn’t going in there and just being lazy.

ES: Yeah.

JS: Just going into the video game and playing video games while they’re in the video game.

ES: Oh, I’m going to kick their ass. Like if my child’s going to play games, I’m going to kick my son’s ass or daughter’s ass, right? And then I make sure they know what defeat tastes like. [Laughing]

JS: Yeah. So, you know, teaching them like you said, skills and lessons that can then be carried over into the business world—and we’re going to get into the way that you’ve structured your book and the lessons that you’ve learned—but just spending some more time on kind of the successful people that are coming out of this world.

You know, you’re a great example. As I was asking around my office for other people that have been involved, I have some people here, specifically Jon Chim, who’s a design director, who was on a professional team for Counter-Strike.

ES: Counter-Strike. Yeah.

JS: Yeah, and he was saying, he comes from a first-generation Asian-American household as well and, when I showed him your book, he was like, “This is my life. I had the exact same experience with my parents and found the same level of community and skill and something I was proud of that we didn’t share.” And it has kind of helped propel him in the business world. So that’s kind of on a small level, but let’s talk about people on a larger level that you know of that have left the gaming world and found wild success.

ES: Oh my god.

JS: You have any examples?

ES: Yeah. Okay. So, let’s use Elon Musk as an example. He’s probably number one in the world right now. He actually talks about the games that he used to play. The same thing with Mark Zuckerberg. So those are two very big examples, but I’ll use someone that’s maybe not as well known. There’s this game called Quake where it’s a first person shooter and that really led to Counter-Strike and all these other Call of Duty these first person shooters that you see today.

One of the guys at the time, also Asian American, his name was Thresh. His name is Dennis Fong. He won all the tournaments. He would win like Ferraris and things like that. He was a top, top player, and I actually interviewed him a couple of years on The Leveling Up Podcast, and I found out that everything he did in gaming carried over into real life, right? So, he started multiple companies, had amazing backers and he’s exited multiple companies as well.

You can see when I talked to him, it’s very systematic in terms of how he treats things. He’s also still very competitive, but he’s also looking up, what else can I do? What else can I do to get better, so then I can make a greater impact on the world? It sounds cheesy, but honestly, if you replace money with impact, you kind of swap them. It’s actually much easier to make a lot more money that way.

JS: Yeah, and the skills that you’re learning there, you know, going back to parents, looking at that, maybe giving a child a hard time, or looking at adults who play games and giving them a hard time, it kind of equates with the way that people give children or the youth a hard time, about how much time they spend on video games or on their smartphones or the way that they “can’t communicate.”

You think these kids can’t communicate? All they’re doing on their phones is communicating. It’s just not doing it in a way that we can relate with, but I think that the technology that people have in front of their hands, that young people have in front of them are making them so much more skilled in a digital world, and that’s the world they’re living in. That’s the world that’s going to take over here.

ES: They react a lot faster. And what I would say too is how important do you think the typing speed is for someone working at your company? I mean, if they’re chatting on Slack and all that.

JS: Every company I’m sure of it. I’m positive.

ES: Okay. So, my point here is back in the day, so, because of gaming, my typing speed at the high point would be about 144 words per minute. Right. So, I talk very fast. I type very fast. I react a lot faster too. Those twitch reactions all come from gaming.

JS: Okay. So, let’s talk about the structure of the book. Now you’ve organized this into, I believe 15 chapters and each chapter ends with like a task. I think you refer to it as...

ES: A quest.

JS: A quest, and you essentially have an assignment at the end of the chapter. Now go do this thing, and then once you’re done with that, come back and read the next chapter, and you unlock little surprises along the way, and you’ve really kind of made your book into a bit of a game.

But the things that you’re doing, the exercises that you’re doing along the way are things that will help somebody, not just temporarily, but for crafting a better long-term life. Either in their personal life or in their business life. Do you want to talk a little bit about the structure of this book and kind of how you’ve organized and what the paths you send people on?

ES: Yeah. I think from a macro level, just thinking about the people that listen to this, if you think about your career, whether you’re a business owner, or let’s say you’re someone working at an agency or a marketer in house somewhere, you have to first go to school to get educated, and then you have to pick up great habits. I call them power-ups in the book because the habits are the bedrock. They are the foundation and you have to keep collecting habits throughout your life, and sometimes you lose the power up, you have to go get it again, right. Mario sometimes gets hit, gets small again, you gotta eat the mushroom again, right? Or sometimes you get the flower and you can shoot fireballs.

But the point is, you pick up the right habits and then you start working somewhere, right? You get hired because you have some skills you can add value and then you can decide, “Hey, you know what? I’m going to do a side hustle.” Side hustle is, "Oh, I’m going to make some money on the side." Maybe then I’m going to start an agency, right? And then maybe there, I’m going to build products, and then from there I’m going to go build SaaS. Or maybe I’m going to go to build a network effects type of business, or maybe I’m going to go build SpaceX. But the whole idea here is that you’re constantly progressing and leveling up in your life.

The concept of this is the wealth ladder, which came from you know the founder of ConvertKit, and I gave him credit in the book because I’m not going to try to steal this stuff, right, but it makes a lot of sense. You’re leveling up in your career. What I’m doing in the book is I’m putting in some of the most important habits. These are foundational habits in there. So, talking about one example would be—”Oh my god, it’s another habits book”—well, ethically stealing, how often do people talk about it? There’s cognitive dissonance when you think about having to steal, ethically steal. Right, but then if Picasso is saying great artists steal, then if you think about everything around you—Steve Jobs is saying everything in life is a remix.

Well, are you really stealing? You’re really drawing inspiration. You’re remixing and maybe 10, 20, 30 percent or so, and that’s one of the chapters, right, because it talks about how I won a championship by copying someone’s tactics. Getting crushed before, copying attacks and then sweeping everyone after that. And so you do that in business too. Well, okay let’s look at Apple. What did they do with the Xerox, they saw the mouse, they saw the GUI, they copied it, and so that’s one example—but the key thing here is, I don’t want you to just read it and do nothing. I want you to take action because reading a book is only one thing. If you don’t take any actions, even if you take action from just one of the quests in the book, my god, so much progress has been made.

JS: Yeah, and in the different steps, as you kind of work your way through the book, there are things that are encouraging you to establish those habits, identify the good habits, identify the bad habits and slowly get rid of the bad ones and focus on the good ones. You talk a bit about getting 1 percent better as opposed to 1 percent worse. So really trying to craft, set goals for yourself and do it in a way that brings you through this journey.

By the time you get to the end of the book—it’s not a terribly difficult book to read—by the time you get to the end of it, if you do it properly, there are key takeaways that you’re going to have that will help everybody be more successful.

ES: Honestly, if you’re just looking for a way—let’s say you’ve played games or even if you’ve played sports. So sports is still a game, right, and it’s like, “How do I actually use those skills, all the time I invested in high school or college? How do I actually weaponize those skills and add more value to the world and therefore add more value to my family as well,” because you’re going to get paid more. This is the book I always wanted growing up because I wanted some hope that what I was doing was moving in the right direction.

JS: Yeah. You know, I’m familiar with some businesses that either, they only hire previously convicted felons and that’s part of their mission, to support people who don't have as many opportunities. Or, they really only hire veterans, or they only hire ex-athletes. You can look to—if you’re a sales organization—the benefit of hiring somebody who is an athlete, a football player, somebody who was in college, who maybe had a professional career, hiring them. They have this sense of teamwork and this drive and these characteristics that are appealing and help them be successful in business. It seems that people should more and more be looking to gamers and it could get to a point where people are putting their gaming experience on their resume, because it does demonstrate a certain level of commitment or success and personality traits that will help them be successful in business.

ES: Yeah. Here’s another example. The Shopify founder, Tobi, he played a ton of StarCraft and he actually hires people that have a StarCraft resume because StarCraft is basically a very advanced version of chess. There’s so many things that happen in the game and you think about—let’s use StarCraft as an example. It’s a real-time strategy game, but you have to think about resourcing. If you execute on this type of tactical strategy, there are trade-offs, and you have to keep thinking about that, and basically it just applies to business. But he has publicly stated, and I’ve seen on Twitter, he’s hired people straight up that said they couldn’t find a job and they were StarCraft pro players.

JS: Interesting. So, there’s another component of your book. It’s not just the skills that you learned from your gaming experience, but also from your experience as a poker player, and I think there are a lot of similarities between people who are successful in gaming and successful at poker. Can tell us a bit about what you learned as a professional—I don’t know if I can call you a professional poker player—but a successful poker player.

ES: Yeah. The most important thing, the things that I learned from poker—and I think everyone should play poker because poker is, it’s a beat down. There’s going to be times where you get extremely lucky and then you go tear for—I went on a tear for like three months and I couldn’t lose. And there’s other times where for six months I can’t catch a break and that’s just life sometimes. Sometimes you get really lucky and sometimes you get really unlucky. When it rains it pours. The other thing too, is, you learn how to deal with your frustrations, your emotions, because things are out of your control. That’s very much business.

You learn how to manage your bankroll when you’re managing your business, you’ve got to learn how to manage your bankroll there. So, there’s just a lot of lessons in there, and I remember one of the key things I said was, “I love how poker relates to the world of business,” and one guy from Silicon Valley was like, “While you’re playing poker, I’m playing business.”

And what I did was I looped in Chamath Palihapitiya one of the—he’s kind of known as the next Warren Buffet, who knows if that will happen, but he’s very, very smart. He was the VP of Growth at Facebook, a big investor now, right. A billionaire, and he’s like, “Yeah, 100 percent poker teaches you all the emotions that are necessary for business, more people should do it.”

And then I just tried to loop some other people, and these investors actually, if you know their names from Silicon Valley—Jason Calacanis. a well-known angel investor, Chamath Palihapitiya, and then you have David Sacks, who was the CEO of Yammer and was part of the PayPal mafia. These people all play poker together. They have a podcast called, All In. There’s a reason for that. So, poker fosters a little community too.

JS: Yeah. That’s interesting, and specifically you said how you deal with tilt, for people that don’t know, what is tilt in the gambling world?

ES: Yeah. Tilt is basically when you get really frustrated. So, let’s say you’re dealt pocket aces. So, you have two aces, basically mathematically you have an 80 percent chance of winning versus any other hand. It’s basically the best hand you can get. And someone else, let’s say you’re holding seven/two, which is the worst hand you can get. Or maybe two/three, if it’s one-on-one, so the same thing, right?

The point is, if I have an 80 percent chance of winning, I might think I should win all the time, and then all of a sudden, if I lose and it’s a really big hand, I could get really frustrated and blow up, and that tilt affects how my play’s going to be for the rest of the session. The key thing is learning to manage, like this too will pass and you keep going even keel, and that’s when you start bringing other stuff in— should I be meditating? How do I stay calmer under pressure? So, controlling your emotions, controlling your tilt is actually very helpful in the world of business.

JS: Oh yeah. I mean, you know, when times are good, times are good, but the way that you behave, when things get tough, when COVID hits, you know, you lose 80 percent of your clients, how do you handle that? How do you react? You know, do you end up doing things that compromise the integrity of the business in the long run, if you’re not prepared for dealing with those ups and downs? Then you could be making poor decisions. Whereas a poker player coming in, they understand this will pass and we just need to hunker down. I’ve seen it before, we’ll get through it and you know, really does set you up to kind of be steadfast.

ES: It’s resilience. So, steadfastness and resilience is very hard to teach. So, when you’re on your own and you’re trying to beat everybody else, it forces resilience. Sure you can get it when you’re a part of championship teams and all that, but when it’s one versus all, oh my god, that trains the muscles a lot faster.

JS: Yeah. So, I want to jump back to one of the things I mentioned before, where you help people identify the good habits in their life and the bad habits in their life and try and do less of this and more of that. It’s kind of a bit counter-intuitive, but, for an adult video games fall on the list of bad habits. Is there any value in continuing that type of engagement with video games as an adult?

ES: Yeah. Great question. I think it could be a good escape for people. So, for example, a couple of weeks ago, I was on a podcast with Billy Gene who’s a marketer based in San Diego. And right before we did the interview, he was playing Xbox. So that’s his cup of tea. He plays with his team. When I had my office here downtown—after COVID, you know, no more office–but we would actually play Smash Brothers after work though, and that would be a good way for us to reconnect kind of loosen up a little bit. But what I will say is as much as I tried to get into gaming right now, I can’t do it because business is so fun. Right. There’s so many games, right?

Right now, we’re doing podcasts. I love doing podcasts. I love talking to people like yourself. I love creating content. So, it could be on YouTube or I can flip back in and think about, “Okay, what deals can I be doing? What businesses can I buy?” So, I can be creating content. I can be doing deals. I could be helping any one of the portfolio companies. There’s just a lot, and so there’s games within games. So, I’ve created all these games for me to play within business so I can just keep moving around. By the way, when I was playing games growing up, I could tell that was a pattern. I kept switching games because I liked playing a lot of different things.

JS: Yeah, and you know, I expected this book—coming from you—to have something to do with the marketing world, and there are certainly takeaways that anybody in any industry are going to get from this, but the clear connection for you is you were so good at gaming and so good at inspiring yourself and working hard on something that you found engaging.

When you got into the marketing world, you were like, this is gaming. If it’s PPC, it’s optimizing things, conversion rates and how is that not a game? This is exactly the same thing, but now in a way that you can start making money, do it, and really become a professional in a very well-respected industry.

ES: Yeah. One of my close friends from high school a couple of years ago, he was looking at what I was doing from a marketing perspective. He’s like, dude, this is exactly like a game, exactly what you said. And because we used to play games together, Counter-Strike, StarCraft and all that, we played together, he went down a different path. He went to a great school, went to work for Morgan Stanley for a little bit, and then actually helped take a gaming company public in Taiwan. So, he knows very much, you know, the world that I come from.

JS: Wonderful. You know, there is a question that I wanted to ask you though, before we wrap up here, I wanted to kind of get the motivation behind doing this. Why are you writing this book?

ES: Yeah, great question. There’s over 3 billion people in the world that have played games. Where are we at now? 8 billion, something like that. So, they’ve at least touched a game. So that counts, right, and if you think about it, the message is important because esports is growing like crazy right now, but there hasn’t been a message that spreads that says, “Hey, gaming is actually a gateway to creating leaders. It’s very possible to become a leader in gaming can actually be good. Just make sure you don’t overdo it.” There hasn’t been something out there. So, I’m like, okay, I might as well do it.

Why choose a book? Everyone’s reading Kindle, whatever. I’ll tell you for me, I still read physical books because I can focus on it, and being able to physically touch something and focus and being able to gift it I think that’s a great way to distribute. So, for me getting on the bestsellers list, that’s great, but the hope is that there’s a long tail. The book doesn’t just spike one day and that’s it. We want it to hold for the long-term. That’s the ultimate goal and you know, I want to be a marketer. If I wasn’t saying, “Hey, there’s other stuff I can do by the way, from a marketing perspective,” creating a book funnel all that type of stuff.

So, the key takeaway I’ll give here too, is I decided to go with a hybrid publishing model with a company called Page Two, and that’s basically a combination of self-publishing and standard publishing where I have the rights to the book. I can do whatever book funnels I want. It also looks very professional. It was done really well by them as well. So, I get the best of both worlds.

JS: Yeah, it is very analog, and I know you, just your nature, you’re going to be upcycling this thing, leveraging it in so many different ways. It’s not like it just ends as a book. And I do agree, a book is a great gift. It’s a great thing to be able to hand somebody in the real world.

But going back to your motivation, going back to how many gamers are out there and maybe the need for people to recognize the value of this—that’s exactly what I took away from it. It’s why before we started this conversation, I said I was blown away because it’s so eye opening to learn about this community and learn the value that’s coming out of it. So, I think you’ve achieved what you set out to.

ES: I appreciate it.

JS: So, before we go, I do want to point people to the website, levelingup.com, when I checked it out last night, I saw you have a promotion getting people to pre-order before January 31st, 2021, to get a couple of bonuses. One of which is a consultation with you, which is pretty mega. I’m hoping that this is a very limited time you’re doing it, otherwise you are going to be booked up until the end of the year here [laughing] but yeah, I encourage people to go to levelingup.com. Anything else that you want to point people to before we part ways here, Eric?

ES: Yeah. I mean, levelingup.com like you said, I’m just reading it right now. There’s a one-hour private coaching call. That’s something you can win and a lifetime access to all our digital marketing courses. There’s a private book community as well, and there’s live Q&As. So, there’s a lot of stuff that's in there and that will expire January 31st.

JS: Okay. There you go. There’s your call to action guys. Get out there. Pre-order the book and I’m telling you you’re going to enjoy it because I really did love it. Eric, thank you for helping us. First of all, open the season and second of all, close it out.

I’ve been telling Sage that I want to treat this episode as like the secret hidden track where the last episode, if you just listen to silence for like five minutes, then this one kicks in. People will be so excited. So, thank you for helping us book in the episode with our hidden track.

ES: Thanks for having me!

JS: Absolutely.

SL: Thanks for listening to this episode of Inbound & Down. If you like the podcast, please rate us, review and subscribe. If you have any questions or suggestions, email inbound@moreycreative.com. Follow us on social everywhere at Morey Creative and subscribe to our question of the day at moreycreative.com/qotd.

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